1716: Hello and welcome to our rolling news coverage of the London riots.

Personally, I have seen very little evidence to support the above at all unfortunately and my own experience of the NHS and that of my friends and family is that it is verging on the abysmal most of the time. And I'm not talking about problems caused by shortage of staff or equipment just basic attention to detail, giving a damn and putting the patient first. I've also found it to be equally bad for diagnosis as well as treatment, the latest episode which springs to mind is someone being diagnosed as having gastroenteritis on the clinical basis of "we've had quite a few cases this week". It's truly frightening.

I think the truth is between the extremes. If you're poor, you'd do much better to be ill in Britain than the USA, but British healthcare does lag behind several European countries. The attitudes vary from the contemptuous to the deeply caring and conscientious. My one experience of British private healthcare (I wasn't the patient) was that it was a bit more personal, the environment was more pleasant (well, they didn't have an Accident and Emergency aspect) but all that didn't stop a stressed nurse being rude when she should have been helpful.

The focus for years on measurable targets has led to downgrading concern about patient experience, which includes whether people are considerate and polite or not. Intellectually, the tide has turned - but has the practice?

I'm grateful for some excellent care I've had, and philosophical about some poor stuff, but what I've seen suggests frail old people unlikely to get out of hospital fit enough to make a complaint are often treated as less than human.

I worked at a large London hospital for a few years during the holidays whilst I was a student. You couldn't have wished to meet a nicer bunch of people from doctors, to nurses, to catering assistants, cleaners and porters. Very selfless people. They are under pressure and can't cope with the work load because they are under staffed. Mostly underpaid too! Mind you up in THE NORTH goodness knows what it's like!!

As has often been said Arthur "It's GRIM oop North" !

The core problem among NHS (National Health Service) staff these days is morale ! When they see admin staff earning enormous salaries, Drawing expense accounts that run to double the annual salary of a skilled surgeon, driving a gratis luxury saloon car to and from home and being awarded ridiculously high "Performance Bonus Packages"
Is it any wonder that staff feel undervalued and have less than normal passion for the work they do, on a pitiful salary in some cases and on top of that being charged hundreds of pounds for a staff parking permit if they have to drive to work, whilst the administrators have a private car park! .And do you know, I cannot ever recall one of these administrators actually saving a single life!!!

Sorry Guy
I meant exactly that; I wanted to say that those who would benefit from the vile and repulsive Republican policies; not from a sensible state provided health policy; would be a tiny minority. Of course added to those must be all those who benefit from the vast web of bribery and corruption that Big Pharma and the health industry have spun over the past decades.

I don't decry that massive benefits have been discovered -usually by very dedicated scientists and health professionals working in the industry which must be allowed to make very good profits; but my gripe is with the marketing of these benefits.

Jimi

Februs

I feel very sorry for you.
I am fortunate to live in a pleasant village near a large university teaching hospital.
My treatment for a premature heart attack and another life threatening complaint very recently has been nothing short of magnificent.
However I am also aware that the elderly and mentally infirm get pretty short shrift from both the NHS and the state.
Re your experiences-complain to Pals, your probably hopeless and ineffectual PCT, your MP, the Health minister; etc etc.
Complain long and loud . Remember that the NHS has had zillions thrown at it during the last fifteen years.
Unfortunately a lot of this has been sucked up by ludicrously large pay rises to doctors-particularly GPs who work about 2/3rds of their old hours for over twice the pay (due solely to incompetent civil servants on the negotiating committee) and a huge and ineffectual and generally very moderate administration.
Every large service needs managing; the problem with NHS administrators is that most of them aren't very good! The only one that I've ever respected was a retired senior army officer who eventually left in disgust after being ground down by the vested interests (mainly senior consultants and central gov civil servants and politicians) within the system.
His previously excellent local hospital failed spectacularly after he left and was replaced by someone who's face fitted!!!

End of sermon-this is after all a spanking board.
Pretty and naughty nurses being spanked is what we should be focussing on (tongue in cheek)

Jimi

Goodness me, we can now all sleep safer in our beds. They have just jailed some poor sod in Manchester for 2 years for stealing 20 doughnuts!! Has the world gone mad or is it only the politicians? Pathetic, how can anyone take it seriously? Do you have to have your brain removed before joining the judiciary does anyone know?

Those who wish to consider a different perspective on the British riots than the predominant one in this thread might want to follow the link to an article in The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/18/england-rioters-young-poor-unemployed

Jimi, I think you've hit the nail on the head pretty much in what you say above.

As to complaining, well I have formally complained in the past and just in case anyone else was thinking about doing the same here are the events that will occur:

1. submit complaint.

2. some lady with a nice calm, soothing (if slightly patronising) voice contacts you by phone and makes sympathetic noises while at the same time admitting no liability.

3. eventually you receive written statements by all those involved in whatever negligence you were complaining about explaining that they have all carried out their roles in an exemplary fashion and that everything is the fault of the patient.

4. you write back again and express your disagreement with their view of events.

5. you hear nothing further.

6. you resolve not to bother complaining again.

I agree with you entirely about the overpaid GPs and also the hospital administrators. Having a medical background myself and having worked in an industry which supplied IT to the NHS I've had the chance to see both of those close us as it were. It's frightening to see someone present at a GP clinic with classical textbook symptoms of a particular ailment and for the GP to either no spot it at all or misdiagnose it. As for the administrators I'd be inclined to reduce them in number by about 50% but also look to recruit a much better calibre of administrator even if it involved having to double the salary of such a post. One or two competent decisions would soon offset the extra salary.

You are priceless, CF! I wasn't aware we had a predominant perspective until you mentioned it!