Mentoring (OT thread fragment)

This site has always taken a very different approach to quality than your average spanking forum and I for one am proud of that fact - if it wasn't that way I wouldn't bother to sacrifice so many hours of my own time to its creation and upkeep.

No-one has suggested for one moment that "grammar is all important" so I don't even know why this needed to be mentioned in a thread which continues to drift off-topic but equally we are focussed on quality and I make no apology for that nor have any intention of lowering standards. If that means that you no longer wish your stories to remain here then perhaps you can let us know.

No-one mentioned 'perfection' so Goodgulf's comments relate to an argument entirely of his own invention. The thread was originally intended by flopsy as a means of helping those new to writing who might appreciate some guidance but has been turned into a tub-thumping session and dragged completely off-topic.

Sorry for taking the thread off topic with yet another diatribe about "grammar verse substance".

When mentoring new writers I feel it is more important to focus on the broad strokes of storytelling rather than the fine points of grammar. Nailing down the point of view is more important than a debate over ending a sentence with a comma or a period.

Yes, I can see the need for minimum standards. I've tried to read stories that were written like long text messages and I can't handle the short hand. I've tried to read stories where the author didn't understand paragraphs and I had to copy, paste, and add paragraphs before I could read them.

So why do I post a "grammar isn't everything" message whenever this subject even tangentially comes up? When I first started posting stories someone asked if English was my first language. It is (and it's my only language) but the first stories I posted had badly mangled grammar and punctuation. Yet without writing those stories and horning my craft over time I would never have reached the point that I'm at now. What I produce fits better into some style guides better than others, but when it comes to grammar I will never be perfect. I accept that while pointing out that since English lack a single authority that administers it (unlike French, which is a codified language) it is impossible to define "perfect" English grammar.

As for my stories, I'm glad that they are part of the library. I cannot foresee ever making a request that they be removed, but they do not (nor will they ever) contain "perfect" grammar. Should the library ever insist on perfection then it would be the library making the decision, not me.


So if I don't think that grammar is all important, what do I think that mentor should get new authors thinking about? Things like point of view. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_mode is a good article that list the basics of it, but it doesn't stress how hard it is to master the "alternating person view" or how challenging the "first-person view" is.

Goodgulf

Februs

We were talking about advice for new writers and how to handle dialogue. I added some advice on how to add tone to dialogue. My advice was then corrected for grammar. I replied that I don't embrace that particular point of grammar, explained why, and ended with:
When it comes to new writers, we should concentrate more on narrative flow and storytelling while focusing less on the finer points of grammar.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I would advise writers to avoid the first person voice - at least for their first few stories. Maybe it's me, but using "I" all the time seems to require different techniques than using the other voices.

Goodgulf

I'm not sure I agree with this, although I agree we all come to it differently and what's easier for some isn't for others.
Flopsy suggested in her post that some writers worry about using 'incorrect' or non-standard grammar; are even deterred from posting because of it.
Writing in first person involves a character's natural speaking voice telling the story. This character can be someone not educated into speaking with standard grammar. These kinds of stories are among the most readable and successful, especially in our genre, and could be an easy way for a writer nervous about grammar to get going, if they stick to a voice they know.
'Catcher in the Rye' opens with just such a voice and still sells 250,000 a year after 60 years!

Maybe it's just me then. I find that when I'm writing first person that there are times I have to struggle to stay in tense. I generally find stories that go something like:
"Tell me about it again." Diane purred.
"Again? You're worse than a five year old with a favourite story." Jack joked. "You're beginning to sound like my niece."
"Well I'm not five." Dianne purred, nibbling on her husband's ear. "And I really, really want to hear it again."

Easier to do than something like:
I looked at her. Lorraine was wearing a blouse and skirt set and stockings.
"Well, if you don't want your stockings to be ruined you might want to lose them, but otherwise... Wait, do you have any pins? When you change out of the stockings you could bring back the pins?"
"Pins?" Lorraine asked in a worried voice. "I'm not really into... I mean, pins?"
"Not for you." I assured her. "For your clothes. Don't worry, it will make sense later."
"Oh. Okay then... I'll just go and change." Lorraine said, then danced out of the room.
With her gone I took off my belt and moved a straightback chair to the middle of the room, placing my case with my chips under it.

Maybe it's the different mindset that using the first person brings? Of the constant use of "I" keeps that character in your mind?

Goodgulf

My, that is an excellent writing lesson-show, don't tell.
And Elmore Leonard is one of my favorite writers.
Great suggestion!
IslandCarol

It doesn't do to get overly hung up on grammar. In fiction, really anything goes as long as it clearly conveys the idea. Characters speak with many different voices and that's as it should be. I often find it's more of a challenge to adopt the imperfect grammar or idiomatic speech of the narrator. Writers who struggle with this can use the pop up box to one of us and ask. LOL, we may not be right but we'll have an opinion.

I agree. I like to hear the writer's voice. Hearing the "I" reminds me there is a person with a voice expressing his/her ideas. The voice of the author gives a piece character and texture. I especially enjoy hearing a character's inner dialogue. I can place myself in the story and feel a part of it. And who can compete with JD Salinger. Jees, what a technique. He was my idle!
IslandCarol.

I happen to like first person and I've written several with that POV. In fact my new one to be released soon is 1st person POV. Its main limitation is that the narrator does not know everything, he only knows what he sees/thinks/knows. So if you wish to convey the thoughts of others in the story 1st person is not the right choice.