Mentoring (OT thread fragment)

Sure, I'll be glad to help. Writers can use email or pop-up if it's a short question. Here's a bit on dialog:



A good many stories are told in dialog between the characters. Dialog is good. It lends an immediacy to the story and makes the characters live. One of the greatest writers of dialog in American fiction is Elmore Leonard. Take a look at the snappy dialog of Get Shorty or Rum Punch. But there can be a problem with dialog too. Consider the following:

"Get the paddle."

"You wouldn't dare."

"Try me."

"You can't. I'll go home to mother."

"You'll do nothing of the kind."



I see a lot of this. It's an extreme example, but what we have here are talking heads. There is no word picture that is being painted. The reader has to imagine what the characters look like and what they are doing.

Here is the revised version.

Bob pointed at the closet door. "Get the paddle."

Mary put her hands on her hips and stamped her foot petulantly. "You wouldn't dare."

"Try Me." Now Mary was worried. The determined look on his face said it all. He advanced toward her.

"I'll go home to mother." She started backing up and clapped her hands to her seat. The universal response of naughty children.

Bob seized her wrist and opened the closet door. Taking the paddle from its hook, he sat on the bed and flipped her across his knees. "You'll do nothing of the kind."

The point here is that if you write a lot of dialog, or if you tell the story primarily through dialog, add description so the reader sees what you want them to see. Otherwise, it's just talking heads.

In the shameless plug department, my recently posted snippet "Describing a spanking without onomatopoeia" was written to a friend overly addicted to the "spank! spank! spank!" school of spanking writing.

But in general I would avoid rules for writers, it is generally the skill with which one writes rather than the adherence to rules which makes for good writing. There is, for instance, a fair amount of prescribing the use of short, simple sentences, in the style of Hemingway, but Jane Austin's sentences have been known to wander and she wrote pretty well for a girl.

Great imagery, Rollin. Now where's the rest of the story?

I find that putting something about tone helps dialogue. Take a simple thing like someone saying to come over here.

"Come over here." Betty said.

"Come over here." Betty said firmly, tapping her toe impatiently.

"Come over here." Betty ordered, fire flashing in her eyes.

"Come over here." Betty suggested slyly, raising the hem of her skirt.

"Come over here." Betty called imperiously, not wanting rise from the comfort of the couch.

In all those cases you have Betty saying "Come over here." but by adding a bit to describe how she says it you are adding to story.

Goodgulf

Actually there is something very similar in "It's All for Charity" a fairly recent one of mine.

This is actually another area where we find it is easy for people to get confused. For the sentence to relate to the actual speech, it needs a comma not a full stop...

For example...

"Come over here," Betty ordered.

Or,

"Come over here," she demanded.

Another example for when an exclamation mark used is...

"Come here, now!" she said.

Or a question,

"Why should I?" he demanded.

Of course all these things will be covered in the information to be made available

What a fun thread, and great guidance! I usually use capitals or italics for emphasis, but which word is emphasized makes a great deal of difference.

The sentence:
"I never said you stole the money."

could be:

"I never said you stole the money."

or
"I NEVER said you stole the money."

or
"I never said YOU stole the money."

or
"I never said you STOLE the money."

or
"I never said you stole the MONEY."

I'm not sure my way is very good. I think my methods irk some people, but I'm open to constructive criticism. Just make it simple enough that I can follow you.

-bb

Ah - that's one of the fine points of grammar that I ignore. Well, not ignore per say, but loosely follow a style guide.

There are two ways of handling punctuation inside of quotation marks. One is

My friend John said "Never do that."
and the other is
My friend John said "Never do that.".

In the second style the section inside the quotes is punctuated normally and apart from the containing sentence. Different style guides take different approaches on that issue and I prefer the second one.

When I use dialogue, I punctuate it as it if were a stand alone sentence mostly because that's how it plays in my head. I don't 'hear' the quotation marks (only the dialogue) when I think of what characters are saying. When a sentence comes to a full stop then I used a period - followed either by an end quotation mark or two spaces and more dialogue.

And here's one of the wonderful things about English grammar - my stories are readable even though I skip over certain so-called rules.

I've talked to many people over the years who wanted to write or had written but not posted and one of the common reasons they give for not posting is that their story isn't "perfect". They worry about misused commas, they fret over colons verses semicolons verse dashes, they debate the greengrocers' apostrophe, whether the last item in a list is separated by a comma, and some of them even worry about using commas verses semicolons during long lists.
Or should that be "They worry about misused commas; they fret over colons verses semicolons verse dashes; they debate the greengrocers' apostrophe; whether the last item in a list is separated by a comma; and some of them even worry about using commas verses semicolons during long lists."? Using semicolons rather than commas for a list can be a judgment call at times and some people won't post because they don't trust their judgment on such trivial issues.

One of the beauties of the English language is, for the most part, the fine rules of grammar can be safety ignored. It is not a codified language but one that borrows or invents as needed. Writers of fiction take advantage of this - look at all the poetic license taken in respect to grammar in the Harry Potter books. Should they all be recalled and rewritten with correct grammar? I think not.


Should this site become one where grammar is all important, then that will be the day when my stories are no longer welcome here.


Mmm, this message grew as I typed, so perhaps it would be best to sum up my feelings and move on:
When it comes to new writers, we should concentrate more on narrative flow and storytelling while focusing less on the finer points of grammar.

Goodgulf
(who admits to owning a copy of The Little Brown Book (which isn't little or brown) but refuses to allow it to rule his life)

Excellent post, Goodgulf. I agree with those you saw your stories are extremely readable - they simply are. You stories get the mental image of the action across with no ambiguity, so since they are always interesting "visions," they are always a good read. I couldn't agree more with your comments about people worrying about perfection. Perfectionism is the antidote to happiness.

-bb

Of course, by "you," I meant "who" in the previous post. No worries about "perfection" where ole bb is concerned!

-bb